and still NO answer.Don't attack me!
as a mod it is my job to spot trolls. then i ban them.
what did you mean by "my guy"?
Sarah Palin resigning as Govorner of Alaska
- Thread starter SarcasticHobbes
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as a mod it is my job to spot trolls. then i ban them.
what did you mean by "my guy"?
ViRedd
New Member
"Why wouldn't they be Constitutionalists first? If the Constitution is so important to them, it would just make sense."
First, one must believe in a Creator in order to believe that our rights, as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, were endowed by our Creator
Here's the line of authority
1. God created Man.
2, Man created the Constitution.
3. The Constitution establishes the framework for our federal (central) government.
4. Bureaucrats and politicians are on the bottom rung of this ladder and exist only as a necessity to make the government run.
So, as you can readily see, the average guy, you and I, are the ones who are really in charge of the government ... and the bureaucrats and politicians are our employees. In other words, they work for us ... not the other way around.
Vi
First, one must believe in a Creator in order to believe that our rights, as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, were endowed by our Creator
Here's the line of authority
1. God created Man.
2, Man created the Constitution.
3. The Constitution establishes the framework for our federal (central) government.
4. Bureaucrats and politicians are on the bottom rung of this ladder and exist only as a necessity to make the government run.
So, as you can readily see, the average guy, you and I, are the ones who are really in charge of the government ... and the bureaucrats and politicians are our employees. In other words, they work for us ... not the other way around.
Vi
timrichards
Well-Known Member
That's some pretty f*ed up logic there. So with that sort of mentality, what man creates is actually derived from God. And a person in office with this mindset doesn't scare you why?
Also, wouldn't a person who put Jesus before anything else be a complete socialist?
Also, wouldn't a person who put Jesus before anything else be a complete socialist?
ViRedd
New Member
1. No, you're not reading what I said. I said: God created Man. Man created the Constitution. Therefore, Man is derived from God and the Constitution is derived from Man. And why would anyone believing this scare me? Should the philosophy of Thomas Jefferson scare me?
2. So, you feel that Jesus was a socialist by today's definition? From where can you quote Jesus saying: "Submit to the tax collector that which you earned from the sweat of your brow, then let the bureaucrats redistribute the fruit of your labors to those who haven't labored?"
Vi
timrichards
Well-Known Member
2. So, you feel that Jesus was a socialist by today's definition? From where can you quote Jesus saying: "Submit to the tax collector that which you earned from the sweat of your brow, then let the bureaucrats redistribute the fruit of your labors to those who haven't labored?"
Vi
"Did Jesus pay taxes?"
In Matthew 17:24-27 we learn that Jesus did indeed pay taxes:
After Jesus and his disciples arrived in Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax came to Peter and asked, "Doesn't your teacher pay the temple tax?"
"Yes, he does," he replied.
When Peter came into the house, Jesus was the first to speak. "What do you think, Simon?" he asked. "From whom do the kings of the earth collect duty and taxesfrom their own sons or from others?"
"From others," Peter answered.
"Then the sons are exempt," Jesus said to him. "But so that we may not offend them, go to the lake and throw out your line. Take the first fish you catch; open its mouth and you will find a four-drachma coin. Take it and give it to them for my tax and yours." (NIV)
The gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke each tell of another account, when the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus in his words, and find a reason to accuse him. In Matthew 22:15-22 we read:
Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away. (NIV)
This same incident is also recorded in Mark 12:13-17 and Luke 20:20-26.
So the gospels leave no doubt that Jesus taught his followers not only in words, but by example, to give to the government any taxes that are owed.
In Romans 13:1, Paul brings further clarification to this concept, along with an even broader responsibility to Christians:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God." (NIV)
Therefore, we can conclude from this verse, if we don't pay taxes we are rebelling against the authorities established by God.
Romans 13:2 gives this warning:
"Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." (NIV)
And finally, regarding the paying of taxes, Paul couldn't make it any clearer in Romans 13:5-7:
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor
Those are from the New International Version of the bible, but feel free to cross reference them to the many other versions out there with this site
timrichards
Well-Known Member
I may have read into what you said a little more than I should have....
You said, "First, one must believe in a Creator in order to believe that our rights, as enumerated in the Bill of Rights, were endowed by our Creator"
Why would you have to believe in a Creator? Where in the Bill of Rights is a Creator mentioned?
ViRedd
New Member
1. The Creator is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.
2. Why should we believe that we are endowed with our rights from The Creator? Because that is the basis for our liberty. If we believe that our rights are bestowed upon us by other men, say a governing body such as Congress, then this same governing body can take these rights away as well. I personally believe this is why the elites are attacking religion with such zeal ... especially Christianity. Take the belief in a Creator out of the equation and substitute with government, and we have what dictators have brought upon mankind since the beginning of time. I have a copy of the Constitution from the old Soviet Union. In their constitution, they have many more rights spelled out than that which is contained in our constitution. The difference between the two systems, is that the Soviet's rights were granted by bureaucrats representing the dictatorship. Our's are innate just because we are human beings. Big difference, no?
2. Why should we believe that we are endowed with our rights from The Creator? Because that is the basis for our liberty. If we believe that our rights are bestowed upon us by other men, say a governing body such as Congress, then this same governing body can take these rights away as well. I personally believe this is why the elites are attacking religion with such zeal ... especially Christianity. Take the belief in a Creator out of the equation and substitute with government, and we have what dictators have brought upon mankind since the beginning of time. I have a copy of the Constitution from the old Soviet Union. In their constitution, they have many more rights spelled out than that which is contained in our constitution. The difference between the two systems, is that the Soviet's rights were granted by bureaucrats representing the dictatorship. Our's are innate just because we are human beings. Big difference, no?
jrh72582
Well-Known Member
You didn't respond the scripture and comments he posted about Jesus being a socialist. Let's hear your thoughts. I went to a Jesuit high school and they always mentioned that Jesus was a socialist and that socialism is most in line with Catholic teaching. Granted, just because the Jesuits said this does not make it true, but this is a prevalent idea. It's certainly widely believed.
ViRedd
New Member
Yikes! I missed his post. Sorry.
I guess his premise would be ... because Jesus paid taxes, Jesus was a socialist.
OK, my response would be: I also pay taxes but that doesn't make me a socialist. In fact, the more taxes I pay, the more anti-socialist I become. In fact, I've become so anti-socialist that I'm about ready to say ... screw April 15, I'm not filing anymore!
And another thought: Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple. The temple most revered by modern-day, American socialists/progressives, is the capital in Washington D.C. That entity is now owned by the central bankers. I wonder ... would Jesus have thrown Bernake out of the recent Senate hearings?
Vi
timrichards
Well-Known Member
Our's are innate just because we are human beings
Exactly, not because they were given to us from some Creator.
The Bill of Rights was based upon natural rights, which you may say is the same as "God-Given Rights". I have always felt that meant they were deserved just for being human, not owed by God. Given by man out of respect for humanity. If it was the belief that those rights came from a creator, then I guess atheists or agnostics wouldn't have claim to those rights or live by them. I for one believe there is a certain sense of these rights and respect to other humans that comes naturally. Is it learned? Is it evolutionary?
As for, "Take the belief in a Creator out of the equation and substitute with government, and we have what dictators have brought upon mankind since the beginning of time."
Yet our rights are still attacked and taken away. The Creator isn't helping much.
timrichards
Well-Known Member
That was not my premise at all. You made it my premise, thinking that all Socialists just want to pay taxes. My premise was that Socialism is the closest thing to what Jesus taught. He helped those around him because they needed it. Do you think Jesus would have bitched about paying into welfare programs? Would he have balked at instituting a healthcare system where all people could get adequate coverage?(And I'm not insinuating any plans brought forward from the current administration, so don't go there) Did he want unscrupulous amounts of money for healing the sick? So what do you think Jesus would have been? A pro corporate right wing capitalist?Yikes! I missed his post. Sorry.
I guess his premise would be ... because Jesus paid taxes, Jesus was a socialist.
OK, my response would be: I also pay taxes but that doesn't make me a socialist. In fact, the more taxes I pay, the more anti-socialist I become. In fact, I've become so anti-socialist that I'm about ready to say ... screw April 15, I'm not filing anymore!
And another thought: Jesus threw the money changers out of the Temple. The temple most revered by modern-day, American socialists/progressives, is the capital in Washington D.C. That entity is now owned by the central bankers. I wonder ... would Jesus have thrown Bernake out of the recent Senate hearings?
Vi
ViRedd
New Member
I don't think Jesus would be a socialist, a communist or a fascist at all. I think he would be a libertarian. In other words, Jesus would have us abide by the Ten Commandments, i.e., Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not covet. Thou shalt not kill.
Jesus would be for voluntary donations of time and money for charity, not the extraction of wealth by government force at the point of a gun if necessary. Remember, Jesus was The Prince of Peace, right? I don't think Jesus would espouse violence, do you?
Jesus would be for private enterprise based upon free ideas, free minds, free markets and voluntary exchange. Yes, I think Jesus would be a capitalist. Not that capitalism is completely moral, but the MOST moral of the economic systems out there.
On the environment: Jesus would be driving a Hummer ... one of the large ones at that. Remember, he had twelve disciples to haul around and he needed the four-wheel-drive as he spent a lot of time in the desert.
Vi
ViRedd
New Member
That's because Americans have lost their moral compass. We have become a dependent class of citizen; citizens who think nothing of lobbying their government in order to use government force to violate the rights of their fellow countrymen to gain an advantage. We no longer think government theft is evil ... in fact, we celebrate it. You can see evidence of this right here on this forum. Read Med-'O-Mao's posts. They're full of the typical "soak the rich" bullshit espoused by the left these days.
Vi
timrichards
Well-Known Member
lol. I always pictured him in a 15 passenger vanOn the environment: Jesus would be driving a Hummer ... one of the large ones at that. Remember, he had twelve disciples to haul around and he needed the four-wheel-drive as he spent a lot of time in the desert.
Vi
ChChoda
Well-Known Member
Answer you, or else? The authoritarian punk thing is getting old. Take this...and still NO answer.
as a mod it is my job to spot trolls. then i ban them.
what did you mean by "my guy"?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/13/AR2009071302852_2.html?sid=ST2009071302882
where did i say or else?
it's pretty obvious where this is all going. you have no answers. for anything. i'm done.
